I unwittingly got into a huge discussion on Twitter about American politics. A very annoying conversation because you just can't have a multiple person discussion or debate on Twitter. It's the most frustrating thing after paper milk cartons; those things are so hard to open.
The whole conversation made my head spin. Because I'm used to debating things point by point and this was not that. It was like, well, random tweeting about whatever people wanted to say instead of them replying to my points and questions directly. But I blame the Twitter format.
My Objective in Writing This
I want to know why so many Mormons vote Republican. I want to know why they are so passionately against aspects of socialism. I basically want to know how they sleep at night. (That was a playful jibe.) I have been able to reach a place of love, acceptance, and non-judgement in some areas in my life but politics is not one of them. It's my Achilles heel. (I know this is not news to many of you.) When people tell me that the US health care system is better than the Canadian system, for example, because some Canadians go to the US for health care (while some Americans go abroad, even to India) and that because some Canadians die waiting for care (while Americans do too and for even worse reasons) I literally want to tear the skin off my face. And I'd like to get to a place in my life where that doesn't happen. I'm a logic-oriented person-- the easiest way for me to accept something is to understand the whys first. If I can at least understand your point of view, then I can accept it and not get upset about it. Don't take my exasperation personally; my own impatience is my own issue that I need to work on.
As well, there are many liberal Mormons like me who would appreciate being able to better understand.
As well, it IS possible that I can be swayed to more conservative ways of thinking. If, for example, Mormon leaders having said that the Constitution is an inspired document means that people should vote for parties that are as closely aligned to that document as possible, and someone can make a good case for this, then I might be convinced that Mormons who vote Republican are more aligned with God's will than Mormons who vote Democrat.
But for that to happen, it would have to be well established that 1. Church leaders HAVE said that the Constitution should be our priority over all other considerations, more so than even the two greatest commandments, and 2. that Republican policies ARE more constitutional than Democratic policies.
Things You Need to Know Before Trying to Explain Things to Me
First off, I have to remind you that I'm Canadian. As such, I've never cared two whits about the Constitution. I had never even heard until this year, in a conversation on Twitter about gun control, that church leaders said the Constitution was an inspired document. I suspect most of us don't learn about it in Canada in our schools and I've never heard much about it at church. I only know bits from Law & Order. (Did you laugh at that? Because that was funny.) And I'm not about to go read the whole constitution. I'm relying on you to be the expert on your constitution.
As well, I'm a convert to the LDS church. I've been a member for 13 years. Mormonism is my religion but not my culture. I've never gone to seminary or institute (aside from one semester) or even Young Women's. I've not been raised with knowledge about some things that other Mormons have been because their family sat around talking about church history or something. I've never taken it upon myself to read a lot of stuff that the early prophets have said because I'm still trying to learn and put into practise things that the modern prophets have said and that always takes precedence. So, don't presume I know stuff that church members rarely talk about. If there's something you think I should know, I'd really appreciate it if you could find the link to it.
What I Don't Understand
How exactly does socialism remove free will from people other than by having more regulations for the safety of people and by having higher taxes? Are there any other ways in which it does so or is it mainly those two ways? What would you propose instead? A state where no taxes are taken from people? What would that look like for you? Exactly how much freedom do you want? Keep in mind that we're not talking about establishing Zion here. We're talking real world, right now; what is feasible?
So far the biggest complaint I've heard from a number of people is that socialism is evil is because it takes away your money that you've earned and decides what to do with it and by not allowing you to decide what to freely do with your money, it's evil like Satan pre-Earth.
Okay.
So, I don't understand the point of debating socialism as a philosophy vs. capitalism as a philosophy when I know of no nation (certainly not the ones in which we're living) which could be described as strictly one or the other. We have a combo of socialism and capitalism in both of our countries and so do Norway, Sweden, France, Iceland, Australia, etc.
To say that you don't support policies that are socialistic seems silly to me when you live in a country that uses taxation as its fuel. Whether you vote Democrat or Republican you're voting for a system where the government takes your money and decides what to do with it. Whether you vote Democrat or Republican, you are voting for a system that takes away some of your free will.
So, if right-wing Mormons object so much to this kind of system, why is Utah largely Republican?
You're voting for the lesser of two evils? Except the lesser of two evils doesn't WORK so well. The lesser of two evils is not taking care of the people of the United States. People are being neglected. Millions of people are going without health care and millions more are enslaved by their medical bills. Even more are paying exorbitant insurance costs. All for the privilege of living, ideally healthfully. That sounds to me like an infringement upon free will.
I do not think it is the Lord's will for children in rich neighborhoods to get a better education and to have gyms in their schools while children in poor neighborhoods have to share textbooks and don't even have adequate lighting in their classrooms.
I do not think it's the Lord's will for hardworking, productive people to not be able to afford to save their kids' lives from an illness or disease.
We know the Lord wants a better world than that because we have the United Order as a model and we also have this Proclamation from early church leaders.
We also have countless scriptures about caring for the poor and needy. In our last conference address Elder Cook said, "The Lord's admonition that we are stewards for those in need contains some of the strongest admonition in all the scriptures. 'If any man shall take of the abundance which I have made, and impart not his portion unto the poor and needy, he shall with the wicked lift up his eyes in hell being in torment.'"
So, with all that-- with all that!-- are there Mormons who say that they will not support socialistic models for social programs because it TRADES some agency of taxpayers for agency of the poor?
I'll get back to this point about it being a tradeoff but for sake of argument let's say it's not. Let's say that it removes agency from people. Do you think that is the most important point of all, that it trumps everything else the Lord has commanded us to do? If so, can you point me to a quote from church leaders that doesn't just vaguely hint at this order of priorities but lays it out clearly? If it's so crucially important, I would hope that the church leaders would make it clear so we could choose the right.
What if every single American looked at these socialistic models and said, "Yes. This will work. I want this." If every single American wanted a socialistic model, guess what? That would BE the United Order. (I mean, it wouldn't really be because it would still be run by the government and not the church, but other than THAT minor detail, heh heh.) If every single American wanted to share of his substance in a socialistic way, then they all would have chosen that. They would have exercised their agency AND they'd be fulfilling the Lord's command to care for each other equitably.
Wouldn't that be great?
If your only objection to equality through socialism is that it takes away the agency of people who DON'T like the notion and you feel guilty about taking away someone else's agency because that's all Satan-like, then you're saying that were it not for that, you would choose this model. You would be saying that your heart wants this more charitable model but also does not want to force anyone else to have to choose this more charitable model.
But you're not forcing anyone. Everyone has the right to vote for this more charitable model or not. Everyone has the right to vote for the good of their own family over the good of the masses. And if people don't want to see the greater good and sign themselves up, isn't that their own spiritual problem for which they will be judged?
It's not the same thing as Satan forcing us all to choose the right in all things. Our world is imperfect and we cannot have a utopia where everyone is free to choose in all things. We cannot have countries where people can do whatever they want, including pay taxes or not. Because it just won't work. It's a logistical nightmare. The majority vote will ALWAYS infringe upon the freedoms of the minority in some way or another.
So, is the main objection of Republican Mormons that the Democrat party supports policies that infringes even more upon your rights than the Republican party?
And even though there's less equality and more poverty in the US than in other more socialist nations, that right to choose trumps all?
The way it is now, there are people who are enslaved by poverty. There are people with medical bills so high they are either forced to declare bankruptcy or live in poverty for the rest of their lives, paying off their bills. They don't have the same freedom of choice as I do. They are enslaved. And if they get sick again, they may die because they can't afford treatment.
There are children who just will not get a good education because they live in a poor neighborhood where their schools are shoddy. Are you really able to freely exercise your agency when you don't have an education?
So, when Republican Mormons say (and some have said to me) that they are choosing the lesser of two evils, I can't help but want to see a flow chart of their logic. I want to see how they weigh out one trade off for another because I do see this as a trade of freedom of the poor for freedom of the wealthy.
I can sort of understand but I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here.
Incidentally, I found this post on The Gospel of Redistribution from The Mormon Worker to be a very interesting read.
So, again my questions, both overt and implied, are:
- Specifically what do you have against socialism and are you against all aspects of socialism?
- Is it not possible to have a superior society that mixes principles of capitalism and socialism than to have a society that is staunchly one or the other?
- What is your idea of an ideal society and what are you doing to work toward that? How much moral responsibility do you think Latter-day Saints have to strive for perfection?
- With the second greatest commandment being to love our neighbor as ourselves, how do Republican Mormons conclude that a Republican country accomplishes that?
